Re: [Xen-devel] "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support

Hi all,

Next-gen CPUs (Intel VT, AMD Pacifica) will have hardware extensions for
virtualisation of the CPUs but they will not help for virtualization of IOs.
This will make possible to run a Windows as a guest O.S. but without any virtualization of IOs. Correct ?

Jean-Paul P.

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Today's Topics:

1. "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support (Antoine NIVARD)
2. Re: "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support (Pete Taphouse)
3. =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9f=2E_=3A_Re=3A_[Xen-devel]_=22Bounties=22_on_XEN_to?=
Windows2000 support (Antoine NIVARD)
4. Re: "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Kundr=E1t?=)
5. Re: "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support (Matt Piechota)
6. Xen source code for IA-64 (jean-paul.pigache@xxxxxxxx)
7. Re: "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support (Eric S. Johansson)
8. Re: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9f=2E_=3A_Re=3A_=5BXen-devel=5D?=
"Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support (Wesley Parish)
9. Re: Xen source code for IA-64 (Mark Williamson)
10. Re: "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support (Antoine NIVARD)
11. Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9f.?= : Re: [Xen-devel]
"Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support (Tim Freeman)
12. RE: xen problem with save/restore (Ian Pratt)
13. RE: xen problem with save/restore (Paul Larson)
14. Re: "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support (Keir Fraser)

--__--__--

Message: 1
To: xen-devel <xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Antoine NIVARD" <anivard@xxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:52:01 +0100
Subject: [Xen-devel] "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support

Hello all,

We are ready to spend more than 10.000 euros to help Xen to support Windows
2000

I have the right number?
Less or more than 10.000 euros (20.000 euros?)?

Regards,
Antoine N.

--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 11:54:54 +0000
From: Pete Taphouse <pete@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: xen-devel <xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support

Hi,

> We are ready to spend more than 10.000 euros to help Xen to support Windows
> 2000
>
> I have the right number?
> Less or more than 10.000 euros (20.000 euros?)?

I asked a Microsoft sales guy about ports of Windows and got this quote
forwarded from the Microsoft Research guys in Cambridge

<snip>
"The XenoXP work is not currently under active development. Whilst
there is no *technical* reason that it can't be done (and it would
actually be much easier with the new Xen hypervisor interface), there
are many tricky political/legal issues.

Basically it comes down to the fact that Windows activation is based on
hardware signatures. Running over an open-source virtual machine this
is not a meaningful thing to do. To get XP working over Xen I basically
had to bypass the activation mechanisms. I know of no easy technical
enforcement mechanism to prevent on copy of XP being run an arbitrary
number of times.

Obviously this would be a breach of the Windows license...

We did spend some time with lawyers investigating ways to release XenoXP
to the academic research community, but nothing came of it.

The obvious direction for VirtualServer to evolve is towards
paravirtualization. I believe that there will soon be an MS
virtualization product which allows Windows to run very efficiently, and
furthermore it will be a *supported* hardware configuration for Windows.

Basically, from my own point of view there's not much more research in
completing XenoXP and too many awkward business issues to sort out."
</snip>

Cheers,

--
Peter Taphouse

Bytemark Hosting
http://www.bytemark-hosting.co.uk
tel. +44 (0) 845 004 3 004

--__--__--

Message: 3
To: xen-devel <xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Antoine NIVARD" <anivard@xxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:14:44 +0100
Subject: [Xen-devel] =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9f=2E_=3A_Re=3A_[Xen-devel]_=22Bounties=22_on_XEN_to?=
Windows2000 support

>> We are ready to spend more than 10.000 euros to help Xen to support
Windows
>> 2000

>I asked a Microsoft sales guy about ports of Windows and got this quote
>forwarded from the Microsoft Research guys in Cambridge

>"The XenoXP work is not currently under active development. Whilst
>there is no *technical* reason that it can't be done (and it would
Ok great

>actually be much easier with the new Xen hypervisor interface), there
>are many tricky political/legal issues.
I don't understand than VMWARE (ESX)[1] can do it, and XenoXP can not.

For example (under a guest Virtual Vmware) the networking card is an AMD
PCNET, video card, etc.

We need to create specials drivers for Xen?
why Xen can't do that?
Legal issue? developpement under NDA?

regards,
Antoine N.

[1] http://www.vmware.com/products/server/esx_specs.html
NDA: Non "Disclosur" Agrement

--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 13:42:47 +0100
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Kundr=E1t?= <jan.kundrat@xxxxxx>
To: Pete Taphouse <pete@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
CC: xen-devel <xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support

> Basically it comes down to the fact that Windows activation is based on
> hardware signatures. Running over an open-source virtual machine this
> is not a meaningful thing to do. To get XP working over Xen I basically
> had to bypass the activation mechanisms. I know of no easy technical
> enforcement mechanism to prevent on copy of XP being run an arbitrary
> number of times.

"corporate key" -> no activation at all. if you work for big company and
are deploying winXP boxes, you don't activate them...

> Obviously this would be a breach of the Windows license...
>
> We did spend some time with lawyers investigating ways to release XenoXP
> to the academic research community, but nothing came of it.
>
> The obvious direction for VirtualServer to evolve is towards
> paravirtualization. I believe that there will soon be an MS
> virtualization product which allows Windows to run very efficiently, and
> furthermore it will be a *supported* hardware configuration for Windows.

... and you'll have to pay them for it, of course. I have doubts if they
would support running non-MS OSes on the top of it.

--__--__--

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:07:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Matt Piechota <piechota@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Kundr=E1t?= <jan.kundrat@xxxxxx>
cc: Pete Taphouse <pete@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
xen-devel <xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support

This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

--0-1901446085-1102601249=:85095
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004, [ISO-8859-1] Jan Kundr=E1t wrote:

>> The obvious direction for VirtualServer to evolve is towards=20
>> paravirtualization. I believe that there will soon be an MS=20
>> virtualization product which allows Windows to run very efficiently,=20
>> and furthermore it will be a *supported* hardware configuration for=""> >> Windows.
>
> ... and you'll have to pay them for it, of course. I have doubts if they=
=20
> would support running non-MS OSes on the top of it.

Exactly. Microsoft isn't going to pay someone to develop XP for Xen when=
=20
they can sell you their own product. Even if you offer to foot the bill,=
=20
they're still going to see it as cutting into Virtual Server sales.

BTW: Anyone know what happened to www.fsmware.com? I was all ready to=20
start working with FreeBSD and Xen and the website disappears (it pings,=20
but response from the http server).

--=20
Matt Piechota
Key Available from pgp.mit.edu
PGP Key fingerprint =3D FC90 4D65 2F8A 38E9 D1A8 FABB 7AE8 C194 5EC8 9CAD
--0-1901446085-1102601249=:85095--

--__--__--

Message: 6
To: xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: jean-paul.pigache@xxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:21:55 +0100
Subject: [Xen-devel] Xen source code for IA-64

This is a multipart message in MIME format.
--=_alternative 004EBFC0C1256F65_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Xen people,

I can read in the Xen 3.0 Roadmap that "A port to IA64 is making good
progress".
I have found nothing about IA-64 support in the "bk://xen.bkbits.net/xeno-unstable.bk" repository.
Could you tell if an advanced version for IA-64 is available and where the
source files can downloaded from ?

Regards
Jean-Paul Pigache

--=_alternative 004EBFC0C1256F65_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

 Hi Xen people,
 
 I can read in the Xen 3.0 Roadmap that "A port to IA64 is making good progress".
 I have found nothing about IA-64 support in the "bk://xen.bkbits.net/xeno-unstable.bk" repository.
 Could you tell if an advanced version for IA-64 is available and where the source files can downloaded from ?
 
 Regards
 Jean-Paul Pigache
 
--=_alternative 004EBFC0C1256F65_=--

--__--__--

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 09:22:04 -0500
From: "Eric S. Johansson" <esj@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: Pete Taphouse <pete@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: xen-devel <xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support

Pete Taphouse wrote:

> Basically it comes down to the fact that Windows activation is based on
> hardware signatures. Running over an open-source virtual machine this
> is not a meaningful thing to do. To get XP working over Xen I basically
> had to bypass the activation mechanisms. I know of no easy technical
> enforcement mechanism to prevent on copy of XP being run an arbitrary
> number of times.

did you discuss the possibility of simple USB security fobs? as the base
for the activation key? These devices are readily available for
lockware and it seems to me this could be easily adapted to this
application. Think of it as a fundraiser for the xen project.

---eric

--
"Part of the problem with the Wal-Mart business model is that it
requires more poverty in order to grow."

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2004/11/22/wal_mart/print.html

--__--__--

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 03:28:05 +1300
From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9f=2E_=3A_Re=3A_=5BXen-devel=5D?=
"Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support
To: xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 01:14, Antoine NIVARD wrote:
> >> We are ready to spend more than 10.000 euros to help Xen to support
>
> Windows
>
> >> 2000
> >
> >I asked a Microsoft sales guy about ports of Windows and got this quote
> >forwarded from the Microsoft Research guys in Cambridge
> >
> >"The XenoXP work is not currently under active development. Whilst
> >there is no *technical* reason that it can't be done (and it would
>
> Ok great
>
> >actually be much easier with the new Xen hypervisor interface), there
> >are many tricky political/legal issues.
>
> I don't understand than VMWARE (ESX)[1] can do it, and XenoXP can not.

It's the GPL. Microsoft gets cancer just from thinking about it. Or Pacman -
it's not often you see a Microsoft employee turn up to his General
Practitioner seeking medical assistance for a severe case of Pacman.
Chemotherapy doesn't appear to affect Pacman; neither does radiation
therapy. ;)
>
> For example (under a guest Virtual Vmware) the networking card is an AMD
> PCNET, video card, etc.
>
> We need to create specials drivers for Xen?
> why Xen can't do that?
> Legal issue? developpement under NDA?

It's actually a deep-seated psychological issue. Microsoft lawyers have a
deep-seated inferiority complex, as do most of the Microsoft programmers, and
this is triggered into a full-blown attack of paranoia at the thought there
is other software out there that people may actually prefer to use instead of
Microsoft's Own. It reduces said Microsoft lawyers to tears at the very
thought that there is freely available source code which they are unable to
legally sequester.

Unfortunately it is next to impossible to get a Microsoftie (as they are
colloquially known) to acknowledge this psychological issue, thus it is
currently not amenable to treatment. It is also impossible to get them to
consider such treatment as an upgrade of the neuropsychological firmware, as
this sets up conflicts, because firmware is logically owned by the firm, and
may only be upgraded at the firm's pleasure.

;)
>
>
>
> regards,
> Antoine N.
>
>
> [1] http://www.vmware.com/products/server/esx_specs.html
> NDA: Non "Disclosur" Agrement
>
<snip>
--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

--__--__--

Message: 9
From: Mark Williamson <maw48@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] Xen source code for IA-64
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:26:24 +0000
Cc: jean-paul.pigache@xxxxxxxx

There's preliminary IA-64 support in xen/arch/ia64. I'm not sure if any
patches to the Linux kernel are required to run on top of Xen/IA-64 but they
don't appear to be in the tree.

Last I heard, Xen/IA-64 can boot a single dom0 kernel successfully.

Cheers,
Mark

On Thursday 09 December 2004 14:21, jean-paul.pigache@xxxxxxxx wrote:
> Hi Xen people,
>
> I can read in the Xen 3.0 Roadmap that "A port to IA64 is making good
> progress".
> I have found nothing about IA-64 support in the
> "bk://xen.bkbits.net/xeno-unstable.bk" repository. Could you tell if an
> advanced version for IA-64 is available and where the source files can
> downloaded from ?
>
> Regards
> Jean-Paul Pigache

--__--__--

Message: 10
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support
To: xen-devel <xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Antoine NIVARD" <anivard@xxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:39:27 +0100

I asked about Xen support with Linux like the host OS and Windows the guest
OS

On the host system, Linux/Xen can not give virtual networking card, video
card, disk space, etc. ?
like Vmware?

cheers,
Antoine N.

>> Basically it comes down to the fact that Windows activation is based on
>> hardware signatures. Running over an open-source virtual machine this
>> is not a meaningful thing to do. To get XP working over Xen I basically
>> had to bypass the activation mechanisms. I know of no easy technical
>> enforcement mechanism to prevent on copy of XP being run an arbitrary
>> number of times.
> did you discuss the possibility of simple USB security fobs? as the base
> for the activation key? These devices are readily available for
> lockware and it seems to me this could be easily adapted to this
> application. Think of it as a fundraiser for the xen project.

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:10:53 -0600
From: Tim Freeman <tfreeman@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Antoine NIVARD" <anivard@xxxxxxxx>
Cc: xen-devel <xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9f.?= : Re: [Xen-devel]
"Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:14:44 +0100
"Antoine NIVARD" <anivard@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

>
>
> >> We are ready to spend more than 10.000 euros to help Xen to support
> Windows
> >> 2000
>
> >I asked a Microsoft sales guy about ports of Windows and got this quote
> >forwarded from the Microsoft Research guys in Cambridge
>
> >"The XenoXP work is not currently under active development. Whilst
> >there is no *technical* reason that it can't be done (and it would
> Ok great
>
> >actually be much easier with the new Xen hypervisor interface), there
> >are many tricky political/legal issues.
> I don't understand than VMWARE (ESX)[1] can do it, and XenoXP can not.

VMware products do not need to port the OS kernel to run Windows; this
is different than just providing special I/O drivers.

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen/architecture.html

>
> For example (under a guest Virtual Vmware) the networking card is an AMD
> PCNET, video card, etc.
>
> We need to create specials drivers for Xen?
> why Xen can't do that?
> Legal issue? developpement under NDA?
>
>
>
> regards,
> Antoine N.
>
>
> [1] http://www.vmware.com/products/server/esx_specs.html
> NDA: Non "Disclosur" Agrement
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide
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>

--__--__--

Message: 12
Subject: RE: [Xen-devel] xen problem with save/restore
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:47:06 -0000
From: "Ian Pratt" <m+Ian.Pratt@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Paul Larson" <plars@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
"Keir Fraser" <Keir.Fraser@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "xen-devel" <xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

> > The latest 2.0-testing and unstable trees only differ in that a new

> > 'blktap' driver was added to the unstable tree, which is not even=20
> > built by default. It really looks to be impossible that you=20
> could be=20
> > seeing different behaviour between the two repositories. :-/
> I see, I was running a diff of the trees a while ago and I=20
> see what you mean. However, it has been very easy to=20
> reproduce this under testing, but on unstable, it never=20
> failed for me even once. So, I installed gcc
> 3.2 and tried compiling testing with that, and it works now,=20
> no crash!=20
> So it looks like it is a compiler issue after all.

Which compiler from which distro were you using before? I'd like to get
to the bottom of this as other people have seen the same problem. We'd
be grateful if you could confirm that building with the other compiler
causes the bug.

Thanks,
Ian

--__--__--

Message: 13
Subject: RE: [Xen-devel] xen problem with save/restore
From: Paul Larson <plars@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Ian Pratt <m+Ian.Pratt@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Keir Fraser <Keir.Fraser@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,
xen-devel <xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:56:37 -0600

On Thu, 2004-12-09 at 09:47, Ian Pratt wrote:
> Which compiler from which distro were you using before? I'd like to get
> to the bottom of this as other people have seen the same problem. We'd
> be grateful if you could confirm that building with the other compiler
> causes the bug.
gcc version 3.3.4 (Debian 1:3.3.4-13) -> Bug with 2.0-testing
gcc version 3.2.3 (Debian) -> No bug with 2.0-testing

I can also try 3.4 pretty easily later today if you'd like

Thanks,
Paul Larson

--__--__--

Message: 14
To: "Antoine NIVARD" <anivard@xxxxxxxx>
cc: xen-devel <xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:57:10 +0000
From: Keir Fraser <Keir.Fraser@xxxxxxxxxxxx>

>
> I asked about Xen support with Linux like the host OS and Windows the guest
> OS
>
>
> On the host system, Linux/Xen can not give virtual networking card, video
> card, disk space, etc. ?
> like Vmware?
>
> cheers,
> Antoine N.

Next-gen CPUs (Intel VT, AMD Pacifica) will have assistance for
virtualisation -- with this help it will be much easier to do
VMware-style full virtualisation (*not* trivial by any means, but it
will avoid the need for binary rewriting).

We hope to support Windows guests when these features become
available. However, at this time the release schedules for VT/Pacifica
aren't public knowledge.

It is *extremely* unlikely that a paravirtualised Windows guest will
be created for Xen 2.0, let alone be publicly released.

-- Keir

--__--__--

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Re: [Xen-devel] "Bounties" on XEN to Windows2000 support